summercomfort (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
summercomfort) wrote2005-12-20 02:07 am
summercomfort) wrote2005-12-20 02:07 am
Good Times
It takes a week to get used to living by oneself. No wonder my previous attempts to live in an apartment all by myself never worked! It never lasted more than a week. But at around the week-mark, I realize that I don't just like cooking for other people, I like cooking because cooking is fun, and because I like food. Today, I scrounged around and found frozen spinach and frozen corn! I added some ground beef, various seasonings, and it turned out really yummy! (My joy mostly comes from making something vegetably out of practically nothing.) It's amazing how the <10 degree weather outside makes one resourceful.
Anyways, then I took a very long bath, and I just had a chat with Joanne, where in-between talk about mail-order cute British children and the difference between antisocial and asocial, we had a good talk about just war and self defense.
------ Narnia and Just War ------
12:47:54 AM Joanne: so i was thinking
12:47:59 AM Joanne: watching narnia
12:48:00 AM Sushu: yes?
12:48:10 AM Joanne: that all these little fairy tales
12:48:16 AM Joanne: they're all about how you have to fight
12:48:30 AM Joanne: cause if you don't fight evil, evil will come to you
12:48:36 AM Joanne: but really, is that good advise?
12:48:56 AM Joanne: i mean, LOTR does it too
12:49:07 AM Joanne: i guess that's what you get when everything's based off of WWII
12:49:31 AM Joanne: like neutrality is an illusion
12:49:39 AM Sushu: yeah, I really don't like that
12:49:57 AM Sushu: like war sux, but in the end, they're like yay just war!
12:50:06 AM Joanne: yes
12:50:14 AM Sushu: and then it becomes all subjective morals
12:50:20 AM Joanne: right
12:50:26 AM Joanne: but war doesn't suck
12:50:40 AM Joanne: Narnia's kids were like, we're suppose to say out of war
12:50:50 AM Joanne: but they can't because they have to save all the cute furry animals
12:51:18 AM Joanne: and the problem with making the enemy 'evil'
12:51:27 AM Joanne: is that we distance it from us
12:51:30 AM Joanne: we make it inhuman
12:51:35 AM Joanne: and give it an excuse
12:51:39 AM Joanne: when really, it's human
12:51:44 AM Sushu: yeah
12:51:50 AM Joanne: but we make it 'evil' so it's not our fault
12:51:54 AM Sushu: yup
12:51:58 AM Joanne: it just was like that
12:52:02 AM Sushu: the whole just war thing you spent a quarter studying
12:52:08 AM Joanne: yeah
12:52:22 AM Joanne: i'm thinking about Hitler here
12:52:27 AM Sushu: oh?
12:52:28 AM Joanne: if he's 'evil'
12:52:40 AM Joanne: then we excuse ourselves from responsibility
12:52:46 AM Sushu: ::nod::
12:52:55 AM Joanne: we do not really recognize that he was human
12:53:02 AM Sushu: then we can focus on the Holocaust and ignore the Dresden firebombing
12:53:14 AM Joanne: exactly
12:53:21 AM Joanne: well, Holocaust was worse
12:53:26 AM Joanne: but he are all party to it
12:53:31 AM Joanne: *we
12:53:39 AM Sushu: yeah
12:53:49 AM Sushu: well, okay, the Japanese internment camps, then
12:54:10 AM Joanne: yeah
12:54:24 AM Sushu: I mean, can't you argue that all war is just, because you can't justify such a sacrifice of life without some sort of "noble" reason?
12:54:45 AM Joanne: exactly
-------------- Aggressive Morality. Bush. Self-defense. --------------
12:55:30 AM Joanne: but the reasoning bothers me- the reasoning that you can't stay neutral because evil must be fought- if they teach that in storybooks, what happens to kids when they grow up?
12:55:53 AM Joanne: they become Bush don't they?
12:55:55 AM Sushu: they have very black/white morals and they act upon it agressively
12:55:56 AM Sushu: yup
12:56:17 AM Sushu: Which is why I kinda like the X-men movies a bit more
12:56:30 AM Sushu: they have their issues, too, but at least the good/bad guys are slightly murkier
12:56:40 AM Sushu: not as much of a Christian Crusade as Narnia
12:56:59 AM Joanne: yeah, that bit's strange
12:57:01 AM Sushu: Like, Magneto... he has a point. He's not exactly wrong
12:57:15 AM Joanne: but then is it right to fight
12:57:22 AM Joanne: when you know your enemy has a point
12:57:27 AM Sushu: I don't know
12:57:36 AM Sushu: maybe you fight in self defense?
12:57:39 AM Joanne: what would you fight for?
12:57:40 AM Sushu: defense of your own point?
12:57:57 AM Joanne: defense of self- what is self?
12:58:05 AM Sushu: because if you let your opponent do whatever, your own world will be threatened?
12:58:14 AM Sushu: I'm really looking forward to X3, btw
12:58:24 AM Joanne: i mean, if 'self' is just your physical presense, that's too narrow?
12:58:38 AM Joanne: doesn't self also include what you stand for and what you believe?
12:58:49 AM Joanne: and if that's true, maybe Bush is fighting for self-defense?
12:59:09 AM Sushu: hmm
12:59:26 AM Joanne: see, this is what happens when I stay up until 2 am
12:59:34 AM Sushu: I think he's not fighting for self-defense, but more like he's crusading for himself
12:59:35 AM Joanne: i start making ridiculous arguments
12:59:45 AM Sushu: I understand what you mean
12:59:50 AM Sushu: but I think Bush is self-offense
1:00:02 AM Joanne: spreading the self to others
1:00:05 AM Sushu: yes
1:00:10 AM Joanne: Aristotle
1:00:32 AM Sushu: and as the President of the United States, he shouldn't be on offense, and his self should encompass all of America, and not just his personal ideals
1:00:56 AM Joanne: but that's a self-defense-offense because he's defending what he is by using offensive measures
1:01:12 AM Joanne: that's true
1:01:24 AM Joanne: but what if America 'self' is also this moral policeman thing?
1:01:45 AM Sushu: then it's up to the people who don't believe that to stand up for what they believe in
1:01:56 AM Joanne: by fighting?
------------------ What justifies fighting? Universal Morality? ----------------
1:02:03 AM Joanne: so Sushu, what do you fight for?
1:02:16 AM Sushu: if the entire world thinks that America should be the moral policeman, and they agree with America's values, then there's no conflict
1:02:22 AM Sushu: I dunno
1:02:26 AM Sushu: I hate to say this, but
1:02:45 AM Sushu: I think conflicts of ideas always have the possibility of physical conflict
1:03:10 AM Sushu: because we live in the real world and we care about our ideas, our self
1:03:33 AM Sushu: I think there'd be a lot less war if everyone is on self-defense instead of self-offense
1:03:59 AM Joanne: but the thing is, if you truely believe what you believe is right
1:04:13 AM Joanne: don't you have a moral obligation for others to believe it too?
1:04:23 AM Joanne: if all Holocaust was wrong
1:04:37 AM Joanne: don't we have a moral obligation to make every state in the world believe that?
1:05:01 AM Sushu: not necessarily?
1:05:05 AM Sushu: I don't know
1:05:17 AM Sushu: here we're talking about universal human rights
1:05:26 AM Joanne: yeah
1:05:32 AM Joanne: or some sort of universal morality
1:06:00 AM Sushu: I mean, if I truly believe what I believe is right, I will want to argue and convince others of that
1:06:02 AM Sushu: but I don't
1:06:08 AM Joanne: because can we really say 'all men are created equal' and then stand by and watch as that equality is violated around the world
1:06:18 AM Joanne: doesn't that make us hypocritical?
1:06:31 AM Sushu: there's nothing that tells me it's absolute truth. I'm always willing to have my ideas challenged by others
1:06:38 AM Sushu: yes
1:06:46 AM Sushu: but the problem is the definition of equal
1:06:56 AM Sushu: does equal mean right to life and freedom?
1:07:05 AM Sushu: or does it include universal health care?
1:07:20 AM Joanne: let's go with really basic things
1:07:34 AM Joanne: the right not to be beaten to death by the police without cause
1:08:03 AM Joanne: so free speech
1:08:09 AM Joanne: free press
1:08:11 AM Joanne: free religion
1:08:15 AM Joanne: negative liberties
1:08:26 AM Sushu: ::nod::
----------------- Drawing circles around the self and enforcing it ------------
1:08:34 AM Sushu: so basically we're defining the self that everyone has a right to
1:08:51 AM Sushu: then can we say that anything beyond that is being on the self-offense?
1:09:01 AM Sushu: whereas everything within the circle is self-defense?
1:09:15 AM Joanne: no
1:09:50 AM Joanne: cause if it was that easy, a year of socs would have been a waste
1:10:03 AM Sushu: haha
1:10:14 AM Sushu: I mean, the hard thing is drawing that circle
1:10:19 AM Sushu: the harder thing is enforcing it
1:10:41 AM Sushu: I mean, you always come across the sticky situation where in order to enforce these little circles, you have to violate some
1:10:52 AM Sushu: the break the egg to make an omlette thing
1:10:57 AM Joanne: yuck
1:11:08 AM Sushu: except, you're not sure if the omlette is worth the egg-breaking
1:11:13 AM Joanne: then you have omlettes with egg shells
1:11:50 AM Sushu: or maybe a half-cooked omlette
1:11:55 AM Joanne: yeah
1:11:56 AM Sushu: but that's really yucky
1:11:58 AM Sushu: and wimpy
1:12:01 AM Sushu: and worse than both
----------------- Acting on Convictions -------------------
1:12:00 AM Joanne: but the other thing is
1:12:04 AM Joanne: we're never sure we're right
1:12:21 AM Joanne: does that mean we don't act at all?
1:12:42 AM Joanne: or do we act the way we think is right, even if it might be wrong?
1:13:06 AM Sushu: I think as long as we know we're not sure, it can depend on the situation
1:13:32 AM Joanne: ends must inform the means
1:13:34 AM Joanne: hehehe
1:13:34 AM Sushu: as in, if I know my convictions can never be absolute, I can always turn back, or at least be open to other possibilities
1:13:57 AM Sushu: and then whether I take action or not depends on the strength of my convictions
1:14:27 AM Sushu: for example, I believe tea is better than coffee, but I do not kill all coffee-drinkers out there, because it's not a very strong conviction
1:14:42 AM Joanne: let's hope not
1:14:51 AM Sushu: but I also believe that people shouldn't mug other people
1:15:02 AM Sushu: so if I see a mugger on the street, I will act against it
1:15:12 AM Sushu: either by calling the police, or coming to their aid, whatnot
1:15:18 AM Sushu: but I wouldn't kill the mugger, either
1:15:24 AM Joanne: Sushu and her mad mugger stopping skillz
1:15:31 AM Sushu: after all, he might be really poor and desperate
1:15:33 AM Sushu: haha
1:15:42 AM Joanne: they usually are
1:15:48 AM Joanne: or they'd be robbing banks or something
------------------- Defense of Free Speech ---------------
1:16:07 AM Sushu: but what if I see police beating someone to death because they said something random?
1:17:21 AM Sushu: are my convictions of free speech enough to propel me to engage in war with the police?
1:17:32 AM Joanne: are they?
1:17:46 AM Joanne: let's say there's no other methods of redress
1:17:52 AM Joanne: the government has completely broken down
1:17:55 AM Sushu: yeah
1:17:59 AM Joanne: they refuse to listen to your complaints
1:18:05 AM Sushu: ::nod::
1:18:05 AM Joanne: they laugh in your face and tell you to go home
1:18:08 AM Joanne: what do you do?
1:18:20 AM Sushu: they laugh in my face about free speech?
1:18:26 AM Joanne: yes
1:18:35 AM Joanne: when you bring your complaint to the,
1:18:41 AM Sushu: I believe that I'd need to act out in self-defense
1:18:42 AM Joanne: about the police beating up on the guy
1:18:52 AM Sushu: my fundamental human right is being trampled on
1:18:59 AM Sushu: I need to fight back
1:19:10 AM Joanne: so we find ourselves some uzis
1:19:15 AM Sushu: this is, of course, given that we've drawn the circles of self properly
1:19:53 AM Sushu: well, first we find ourselves like-minded people
1:19:56 AM Joanne: let's say the police is not on 55th street
1:20:03 AM Joanne: the police is in Rwanda
1:20:05 AM Joanne: or Uganda
1:20:14 AM Joanne: and they're beating up on someone
1:20:30 AM Sushu: are they doing that because they're ordered to, or because they truly believe?
1:20:33 AM Joanne: cause that person said something they didn't like
1:20:49 AM Joanne: a little bit from colomn A
1:20:56 AM Joanne: and a bit from colomn B
1:21:43 AM Sushu: I mean, is this a matter of killing the top guy whose beliefs are influencing everyone else, or is this a matter of changing the beliefs of *all* of the police?
1:22:08 AM Joanne: without the top guy, there would be no movement
1:22:13 AM Sushu: as in, are have they all subscribed to the Absolute Truth belief?
1:22:14 AM Sushu: ah
1:22:15 AM Sushu: okay
1:22:22 AM Joanne: but without hte people who are angry, there would be no movement as well
1:22:32 AM Sushu: then I will go about changing the top guy first
1:22:42 AM Sushu: killing him if necessary
1:22:45 AM Sushu: but that's really messy
1:22:51 AM Joanne: assassinations?
1:23:02 AM Joanne: a kid in our BA seminar's gonna write about taht
1:23:04 AM Sushu: and that doesn't prevent other loonies from becoming the next top guy
1:23:11 AM Sushu: well, I'd rather not
1:23:25 AM Sushu: I'd rather try to convince Stalin that he's Gorbachev
1:23:40 AM Joanne: if you can do that, power to you
1:24:14 AM Sushu: but if I can't
1:24:17 AM Joanne: but something tells me that wolves can't be turned to sheep
1:24:21 AM Sushu: I'm willing to kill him
1:24:27 AM Sushu: I think
1:24:45 AM Sushu: or at least remove him from that influential place of power
1:25:00 AM Sushu: I guess that's going on the offense
1:25:05 AM Joanne: yes
1:25:08 AM Joanne: but being defensive
1:25:13 AM Sushu: yup
1:25:30 AM Sushu: because if he hadn't trampled my rights to begin with, I would have been a happy little citizen
---------------- Coda ---------------
1:25:32 AM Joanne: can't wait til we take over the world
1:25:35 AM Sushu: w00t
1:25:55 AM Joanne: then it's house cleaning time in Africa
1:26:03 AM Sushu: yup
1:26:32 AM Sushu: do you think there's a certain degree of social consciousness necessary to understand basic human rights, though?
1:26:50 AM Sushu: what if the guy being beaten up that we're trying so hard to protect doesn't understand human rights, either?
1:26:57 AM Sushu: both sides are blind
1:27:09 AM Sushu: we become the enlightened mediator?
1:27:14 AM Sushu: arg, education
1:27:28 AM Joanne: then we go in there with some french schoolmistresses and straighten them out
1:27:40 AM Joanne: or swiss
1:27:43 AM Joanne: or canadian
1:27:46 AM Joanne: those are always neutral
1:28:07 AM Joanne: or that's where transnational organizations come in
1:28:40 AM Sushu: ::nod::
1:29:17 AM Sushu: I think the world would be a lot better if everyone understood basic human rights
1:29:23 AM Sushu: people don't yet
1:29:32 AM Sushu: too many Absolute convictions
1:29:38 AM Sushu: and movies like Narnia
1:30:01 AM Joanne: also because people are starving
1:30:08 AM Joanne: it's hard to care about human rights we're you're starving
1:30:10 AM Joanne: or sick
1:30:13 AM Sushu: yea
1:30:16 AM Sushu: very true
1:30:43 AM Sushu: so first we need to make sure everyone has their right to life
1:31:06 AM Joanne: which is where all teh econ majors come in
--------------------- Sushu-Tangent ---------------------
1:31:08 AM Sushu: Hmm... is Society anti-Darwin?
1:31:11 AM Sushu: haha
1:31:19 AM Joanne: no
1:31:35 AM Joanne: it's equal opportunity
1:31:53 AM Joanne: but some people are still going to be smarter or prettier
1:32:23 AM Sushu: I mean, if I were Darwin, I'd say "let them starve, they obviously overpopulated their environment"
1:32:42 AM Sushu: but with society, we're like "if you're born, you have the right to give life a shot"
1:33:00 AM Joanne: not darwin himself
1:33:09 AM Joanne: but 'Social Darwinists' certainly
1:33:24 AM Joanne: they stole his ideas with regards to animals
1:33:35 AM Sushu: yeah
1:33:36 AM Joanne: but if we think we're so great
1:33:38 AM Sushu: or something
1:33:41 AM Joanne: so much better than animals
1:33:47 AM Joanne: deserving inheritors of the earth
1:33:53 AM Joanne: top of the food chain
1:33:56 AM Joanne: then we've got to prove it
1:34:05 AM Joanne: we can do social darwinism
1:34:10 AM Sushu: I mean, Darwin himself is like, if you starve, it means you won't have babies, and the ones who didn't starve will have more... evolved! babies
1:34:11 AM Joanne: but that'll just make us like animals
1:34:19 AM Sushu: haha
1:34:33 AM Joanne: no, Darwin was just talking about animals
1:34:35 AM Joanne: not humans
1:34:43 AM Sushu: yeah
1:34:50 AM Sushu: that's because humans are in society
1:35:07 AM Sushu: if you take humans out of society, they're just an element of the food chain
1:35:22 AM Sushu: but by forming these little society things, we create little bubbles against natural evolution
1:35:22 AM Joanne: i'm just saying if we're advertising humanity as a step above mere animals, we've got to prove it by not resorting to social darwinims
1:36:55 AM Sushu: ::nodnod::
1:37:07 AM Sushu: I've never liked the Social Darwinists
---------------------- Coda, again -----------------
1:37:37 AM Sushu: anyways, I think we have good groundwork for saving the world from moral absolutism and war
1:38:11 AM Joanne: yay
1:38:12 AM Joanne: go us
1:38:22 AM Joanne: see and you claim you've been wasting time
1:38:28 AM Joanne: just tell your parents you've been saving the world
1:38:57 AM Sushu: haha
1:39:04 AM Sushu: one intellectual block at a time
1:39:12 AM Joanne: exactly
And just heard some very nifty news about Alexis, which is totally exciting!
Anyways, then I took a very long bath, and I just had a chat with Joanne, where in-between talk about mail-order cute British children and the difference between antisocial and asocial, we had a good talk about just war and self defense.
------ Narnia and Just War ------
12:47:54 AM Joanne: so i was thinking
12:47:59 AM Joanne: watching narnia
12:48:00 AM Sushu: yes?
12:48:10 AM Joanne: that all these little fairy tales
12:48:16 AM Joanne: they're all about how you have to fight
12:48:30 AM Joanne: cause if you don't fight evil, evil will come to you
12:48:36 AM Joanne: but really, is that good advise?
12:48:56 AM Joanne: i mean, LOTR does it too
12:49:07 AM Joanne: i guess that's what you get when everything's based off of WWII
12:49:31 AM Joanne: like neutrality is an illusion
12:49:39 AM Sushu: yeah, I really don't like that
12:49:57 AM Sushu: like war sux, but in the end, they're like yay just war!
12:50:06 AM Joanne: yes
12:50:14 AM Sushu: and then it becomes all subjective morals
12:50:20 AM Joanne: right
12:50:26 AM Joanne: but war doesn't suck
12:50:40 AM Joanne: Narnia's kids were like, we're suppose to say out of war
12:50:50 AM Joanne: but they can't because they have to save all the cute furry animals
12:51:18 AM Joanne: and the problem with making the enemy 'evil'
12:51:27 AM Joanne: is that we distance it from us
12:51:30 AM Joanne: we make it inhuman
12:51:35 AM Joanne: and give it an excuse
12:51:39 AM Joanne: when really, it's human
12:51:44 AM Sushu: yeah
12:51:50 AM Joanne: but we make it 'evil' so it's not our fault
12:51:54 AM Sushu: yup
12:51:58 AM Joanne: it just was like that
12:52:02 AM Sushu: the whole just war thing you spent a quarter studying
12:52:08 AM Joanne: yeah
12:52:22 AM Joanne: i'm thinking about Hitler here
12:52:27 AM Sushu: oh?
12:52:28 AM Joanne: if he's 'evil'
12:52:40 AM Joanne: then we excuse ourselves from responsibility
12:52:46 AM Sushu: ::nod::
12:52:55 AM Joanne: we do not really recognize that he was human
12:53:02 AM Sushu: then we can focus on the Holocaust and ignore the Dresden firebombing
12:53:14 AM Joanne: exactly
12:53:21 AM Joanne: well, Holocaust was worse
12:53:26 AM Joanne: but he are all party to it
12:53:31 AM Joanne: *we
12:53:39 AM Sushu: yeah
12:53:49 AM Sushu: well, okay, the Japanese internment camps, then
12:54:10 AM Joanne: yeah
12:54:24 AM Sushu: I mean, can't you argue that all war is just, because you can't justify such a sacrifice of life without some sort of "noble" reason?
12:54:45 AM Joanne: exactly
-------------- Aggressive Morality. Bush. Self-defense. --------------
12:55:30 AM Joanne: but the reasoning bothers me- the reasoning that you can't stay neutral because evil must be fought- if they teach that in storybooks, what happens to kids when they grow up?
12:55:53 AM Joanne: they become Bush don't they?
12:55:55 AM Sushu: they have very black/white morals and they act upon it agressively
12:55:56 AM Sushu: yup
12:56:17 AM Sushu: Which is why I kinda like the X-men movies a bit more
12:56:30 AM Sushu: they have their issues, too, but at least the good/bad guys are slightly murkier
12:56:40 AM Sushu: not as much of a Christian Crusade as Narnia
12:56:59 AM Joanne: yeah, that bit's strange
12:57:01 AM Sushu: Like, Magneto... he has a point. He's not exactly wrong
12:57:15 AM Joanne: but then is it right to fight
12:57:22 AM Joanne: when you know your enemy has a point
12:57:27 AM Sushu: I don't know
12:57:36 AM Sushu: maybe you fight in self defense?
12:57:39 AM Joanne: what would you fight for?
12:57:40 AM Sushu: defense of your own point?
12:57:57 AM Joanne: defense of self- what is self?
12:58:05 AM Sushu: because if you let your opponent do whatever, your own world will be threatened?
12:58:14 AM Sushu: I'm really looking forward to X3, btw
12:58:24 AM Joanne: i mean, if 'self' is just your physical presense, that's too narrow?
12:58:38 AM Joanne: doesn't self also include what you stand for and what you believe?
12:58:49 AM Joanne: and if that's true, maybe Bush is fighting for self-defense?
12:59:09 AM Sushu: hmm
12:59:26 AM Joanne: see, this is what happens when I stay up until 2 am
12:59:34 AM Sushu: I think he's not fighting for self-defense, but more like he's crusading for himself
12:59:35 AM Joanne: i start making ridiculous arguments
12:59:45 AM Sushu: I understand what you mean
12:59:50 AM Sushu: but I think Bush is self-offense
1:00:02 AM Joanne: spreading the self to others
1:00:05 AM Sushu: yes
1:00:10 AM Joanne: Aristotle
1:00:32 AM Sushu: and as the President of the United States, he shouldn't be on offense, and his self should encompass all of America, and not just his personal ideals
1:00:56 AM Joanne: but that's a self-defense-offense because he's defending what he is by using offensive measures
1:01:12 AM Joanne: that's true
1:01:24 AM Joanne: but what if America 'self' is also this moral policeman thing?
1:01:45 AM Sushu: then it's up to the people who don't believe that to stand up for what they believe in
1:01:56 AM Joanne: by fighting?
------------------ What justifies fighting? Universal Morality? ----------------
1:02:03 AM Joanne: so Sushu, what do you fight for?
1:02:16 AM Sushu: if the entire world thinks that America should be the moral policeman, and they agree with America's values, then there's no conflict
1:02:22 AM Sushu: I dunno
1:02:26 AM Sushu: I hate to say this, but
1:02:45 AM Sushu: I think conflicts of ideas always have the possibility of physical conflict
1:03:10 AM Sushu: because we live in the real world and we care about our ideas, our self
1:03:33 AM Sushu: I think there'd be a lot less war if everyone is on self-defense instead of self-offense
1:03:59 AM Joanne: but the thing is, if you truely believe what you believe is right
1:04:13 AM Joanne: don't you have a moral obligation for others to believe it too?
1:04:23 AM Joanne: if all Holocaust was wrong
1:04:37 AM Joanne: don't we have a moral obligation to make every state in the world believe that?
1:05:01 AM Sushu: not necessarily?
1:05:05 AM Sushu: I don't know
1:05:17 AM Sushu: here we're talking about universal human rights
1:05:26 AM Joanne: yeah
1:05:32 AM Joanne: or some sort of universal morality
1:06:00 AM Sushu: I mean, if I truly believe what I believe is right, I will want to argue and convince others of that
1:06:02 AM Sushu: but I don't
1:06:08 AM Joanne: because can we really say 'all men are created equal' and then stand by and watch as that equality is violated around the world
1:06:18 AM Joanne: doesn't that make us hypocritical?
1:06:31 AM Sushu: there's nothing that tells me it's absolute truth. I'm always willing to have my ideas challenged by others
1:06:38 AM Sushu: yes
1:06:46 AM Sushu: but the problem is the definition of equal
1:06:56 AM Sushu: does equal mean right to life and freedom?
1:07:05 AM Sushu: or does it include universal health care?
1:07:20 AM Joanne: let's go with really basic things
1:07:34 AM Joanne: the right not to be beaten to death by the police without cause
1:08:03 AM Joanne: so free speech
1:08:09 AM Joanne: free press
1:08:11 AM Joanne: free religion
1:08:15 AM Joanne: negative liberties
1:08:26 AM Sushu: ::nod::
----------------- Drawing circles around the self and enforcing it ------------
1:08:34 AM Sushu: so basically we're defining the self that everyone has a right to
1:08:51 AM Sushu: then can we say that anything beyond that is being on the self-offense?
1:09:01 AM Sushu: whereas everything within the circle is self-defense?
1:09:15 AM Joanne: no
1:09:50 AM Joanne: cause if it was that easy, a year of socs would have been a waste
1:10:03 AM Sushu: haha
1:10:14 AM Sushu: I mean, the hard thing is drawing that circle
1:10:19 AM Sushu: the harder thing is enforcing it
1:10:41 AM Sushu: I mean, you always come across the sticky situation where in order to enforce these little circles, you have to violate some
1:10:52 AM Sushu: the break the egg to make an omlette thing
1:10:57 AM Joanne: yuck
1:11:08 AM Sushu: except, you're not sure if the omlette is worth the egg-breaking
1:11:13 AM Joanne: then you have omlettes with egg shells
1:11:50 AM Sushu: or maybe a half-cooked omlette
1:11:55 AM Joanne: yeah
1:11:56 AM Sushu: but that's really yucky
1:11:58 AM Sushu: and wimpy
1:12:01 AM Sushu: and worse than both
----------------- Acting on Convictions -------------------
1:12:00 AM Joanne: but the other thing is
1:12:04 AM Joanne: we're never sure we're right
1:12:21 AM Joanne: does that mean we don't act at all?
1:12:42 AM Joanne: or do we act the way we think is right, even if it might be wrong?
1:13:06 AM Sushu: I think as long as we know we're not sure, it can depend on the situation
1:13:32 AM Joanne: ends must inform the means
1:13:34 AM Joanne: hehehe
1:13:34 AM Sushu: as in, if I know my convictions can never be absolute, I can always turn back, or at least be open to other possibilities
1:13:57 AM Sushu: and then whether I take action or not depends on the strength of my convictions
1:14:27 AM Sushu: for example, I believe tea is better than coffee, but I do not kill all coffee-drinkers out there, because it's not a very strong conviction
1:14:42 AM Joanne: let's hope not
1:14:51 AM Sushu: but I also believe that people shouldn't mug other people
1:15:02 AM Sushu: so if I see a mugger on the street, I will act against it
1:15:12 AM Sushu: either by calling the police, or coming to their aid, whatnot
1:15:18 AM Sushu: but I wouldn't kill the mugger, either
1:15:24 AM Joanne: Sushu and her mad mugger stopping skillz
1:15:31 AM Sushu: after all, he might be really poor and desperate
1:15:33 AM Sushu: haha
1:15:42 AM Joanne: they usually are
1:15:48 AM Joanne: or they'd be robbing banks or something
------------------- Defense of Free Speech ---------------
1:16:07 AM Sushu: but what if I see police beating someone to death because they said something random?
1:17:21 AM Sushu: are my convictions of free speech enough to propel me to engage in war with the police?
1:17:32 AM Joanne: are they?
1:17:46 AM Joanne: let's say there's no other methods of redress
1:17:52 AM Joanne: the government has completely broken down
1:17:55 AM Sushu: yeah
1:17:59 AM Joanne: they refuse to listen to your complaints
1:18:05 AM Sushu: ::nod::
1:18:05 AM Joanne: they laugh in your face and tell you to go home
1:18:08 AM Joanne: what do you do?
1:18:20 AM Sushu: they laugh in my face about free speech?
1:18:26 AM Joanne: yes
1:18:35 AM Joanne: when you bring your complaint to the,
1:18:41 AM Sushu: I believe that I'd need to act out in self-defense
1:18:42 AM Joanne: about the police beating up on the guy
1:18:52 AM Sushu: my fundamental human right is being trampled on
1:18:59 AM Sushu: I need to fight back
1:19:10 AM Joanne: so we find ourselves some uzis
1:19:15 AM Sushu: this is, of course, given that we've drawn the circles of self properly
1:19:53 AM Sushu: well, first we find ourselves like-minded people
1:19:56 AM Joanne: let's say the police is not on 55th street
1:20:03 AM Joanne: the police is in Rwanda
1:20:05 AM Joanne: or Uganda
1:20:14 AM Joanne: and they're beating up on someone
1:20:30 AM Sushu: are they doing that because they're ordered to, or because they truly believe?
1:20:33 AM Joanne: cause that person said something they didn't like
1:20:49 AM Joanne: a little bit from colomn A
1:20:56 AM Joanne: and a bit from colomn B
1:21:43 AM Sushu: I mean, is this a matter of killing the top guy whose beliefs are influencing everyone else, or is this a matter of changing the beliefs of *all* of the police?
1:22:08 AM Joanne: without the top guy, there would be no movement
1:22:13 AM Sushu: as in, are have they all subscribed to the Absolute Truth belief?
1:22:14 AM Sushu: ah
1:22:15 AM Sushu: okay
1:22:22 AM Joanne: but without hte people who are angry, there would be no movement as well
1:22:32 AM Sushu: then I will go about changing the top guy first
1:22:42 AM Sushu: killing him if necessary
1:22:45 AM Sushu: but that's really messy
1:22:51 AM Joanne: assassinations?
1:23:02 AM Joanne: a kid in our BA seminar's gonna write about taht
1:23:04 AM Sushu: and that doesn't prevent other loonies from becoming the next top guy
1:23:11 AM Sushu: well, I'd rather not
1:23:25 AM Sushu: I'd rather try to convince Stalin that he's Gorbachev
1:23:40 AM Joanne: if you can do that, power to you
1:24:14 AM Sushu: but if I can't
1:24:17 AM Joanne: but something tells me that wolves can't be turned to sheep
1:24:21 AM Sushu: I'm willing to kill him
1:24:27 AM Sushu: I think
1:24:45 AM Sushu: or at least remove him from that influential place of power
1:25:00 AM Sushu: I guess that's going on the offense
1:25:05 AM Joanne: yes
1:25:08 AM Joanne: but being defensive
1:25:13 AM Sushu: yup
1:25:30 AM Sushu: because if he hadn't trampled my rights to begin with, I would have been a happy little citizen
---------------- Coda ---------------
1:25:32 AM Joanne: can't wait til we take over the world
1:25:35 AM Sushu: w00t
1:25:55 AM Joanne: then it's house cleaning time in Africa
1:26:03 AM Sushu: yup
1:26:32 AM Sushu: do you think there's a certain degree of social consciousness necessary to understand basic human rights, though?
1:26:50 AM Sushu: what if the guy being beaten up that we're trying so hard to protect doesn't understand human rights, either?
1:26:57 AM Sushu: both sides are blind
1:27:09 AM Sushu: we become the enlightened mediator?
1:27:14 AM Sushu: arg, education
1:27:28 AM Joanne: then we go in there with some french schoolmistresses and straighten them out
1:27:40 AM Joanne: or swiss
1:27:43 AM Joanne: or canadian
1:27:46 AM Joanne: those are always neutral
1:28:07 AM Joanne: or that's where transnational organizations come in
1:28:40 AM Sushu: ::nod::
1:29:17 AM Sushu: I think the world would be a lot better if everyone understood basic human rights
1:29:23 AM Sushu: people don't yet
1:29:32 AM Sushu: too many Absolute convictions
1:29:38 AM Sushu: and movies like Narnia
1:30:01 AM Joanne: also because people are starving
1:30:08 AM Joanne: it's hard to care about human rights we're you're starving
1:30:10 AM Joanne: or sick
1:30:13 AM Sushu: yea
1:30:16 AM Sushu: very true
1:30:43 AM Sushu: so first we need to make sure everyone has their right to life
1:31:06 AM Joanne: which is where all teh econ majors come in
--------------------- Sushu-Tangent ---------------------
1:31:08 AM Sushu: Hmm... is Society anti-Darwin?
1:31:11 AM Sushu: haha
1:31:19 AM Joanne: no
1:31:35 AM Joanne: it's equal opportunity
1:31:53 AM Joanne: but some people are still going to be smarter or prettier
1:32:23 AM Sushu: I mean, if I were Darwin, I'd say "let them starve, they obviously overpopulated their environment"
1:32:42 AM Sushu: but with society, we're like "if you're born, you have the right to give life a shot"
1:33:00 AM Joanne: not darwin himself
1:33:09 AM Joanne: but 'Social Darwinists' certainly
1:33:24 AM Joanne: they stole his ideas with regards to animals
1:33:35 AM Sushu: yeah
1:33:36 AM Joanne: but if we think we're so great
1:33:38 AM Sushu: or something
1:33:41 AM Joanne: so much better than animals
1:33:47 AM Joanne: deserving inheritors of the earth
1:33:53 AM Joanne: top of the food chain
1:33:56 AM Joanne: then we've got to prove it
1:34:05 AM Joanne: we can do social darwinism
1:34:10 AM Sushu: I mean, Darwin himself is like, if you starve, it means you won't have babies, and the ones who didn't starve will have more... evolved! babies
1:34:11 AM Joanne: but that'll just make us like animals
1:34:19 AM Sushu: haha
1:34:33 AM Joanne: no, Darwin was just talking about animals
1:34:35 AM Joanne: not humans
1:34:43 AM Sushu: yeah
1:34:50 AM Sushu: that's because humans are in society
1:35:07 AM Sushu: if you take humans out of society, they're just an element of the food chain
1:35:22 AM Sushu: but by forming these little society things, we create little bubbles against natural evolution
1:35:22 AM Joanne: i'm just saying if we're advertising humanity as a step above mere animals, we've got to prove it by not resorting to social darwinims
1:36:55 AM Sushu: ::nodnod::
1:37:07 AM Sushu: I've never liked the Social Darwinists
---------------------- Coda, again -----------------
1:37:37 AM Sushu: anyways, I think we have good groundwork for saving the world from moral absolutism and war
1:38:11 AM Joanne: yay
1:38:12 AM Joanne: go us
1:38:22 AM Joanne: see and you claim you've been wasting time
1:38:28 AM Joanne: just tell your parents you've been saving the world
1:38:57 AM Sushu: haha
1:39:04 AM Sushu: one intellectual block at a time
1:39:12 AM Joanne: exactly
And just heard some very nifty news about Alexis, which is totally exciting!
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ARGH CHATLOG INTERESTING BUT HARD TO READ
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Well, I was waiting for Alexis to tell everyone herself, but she's indeed staying for another year to work on a spiffy language teaching project, and she's going to the Philippines to get training for that, which I find really nifty!
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